Discovering and Embracing High Sensitivity

SPEAKER_01 1:03

I can sense what someone's feeling and I have compassion for it, but I don't need to carry that burden as my own.

April Snow 1:17

Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host, psychotherapist and author April Snow. I invite you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm. In this episode, I talk with Amy Pennell about the signs of burnout and how to start healing when it's time to make a big change and why boundaries are so crucial along the way. Amy is a registered social worker and clinical therapist in Canada. In her private practice, she helps highly sensitive helpers and healers who are struggling with burnout and codependency. And is the founder of Sensitive Social Worker, a community of deep-feeling, tender-hearted social workers who want to excel in a mission-driven, purposeful career without sacrificing their own mental health and well-being in the process. For more HSP resources and to see behind the scenes video from the podcast, join me on Instagram, TikTok, or YouTube at Sensitive Strengths, or sign up for my email list. Links are in the show notes and at sensitivestories.com. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in the street.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Yes, thank you.

April Snow 3:11

I'm wondering if you could start off by telling us your HSP discovery story. How when did you discover that you're highly sensitive?

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Absolutely. So I discovered I was highly sensitive in my late 20s. So I guess everyone discovers at a different time, but for me it feels later in life because it wasn't that long ago. And I actually think the first time I heard the term highly sensitive or delve into this realm of sensitivity as a type of neurodivergence was through Instagram. That's where the term came up for the first time and motivated me to dive deeper to learn more. So I started exploring. I read some of Dr. Elaine Aaron's work. I like did the quiz and scored almost like 100%. I think there's maybe one question that I didn't get on that. And I basically just haven't stopped since wanting to learn more about it and integrating it into that knowledge into my life. And I do, I will say, April, I think that your pages, I think the sensitive therapist one was maybe one of the first pages I came across, and then your sensitive strengths one as well. And yeah, I think that was part of my beginning exploration journey.

April Snow 4:23

Yeah, it what you're sharing, it reminds me of my own experience. I have a lot of other HSVs. When you realize it, it just really opens everything up. And you can't help, it's in our nature, you can't help but deep dive and learn as much as possible.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

For sure. And for me, like at that point, I had been a social worker for probably five years or so, and I had learned a lot about trauma and the nervous system and like how it impacts the body and our mental health and all these things. And for me, that was like huge, and that was putting some pieces together and understanding like why I am the way I am, and you know, maybe why I'm different than some people, but there was still something missing, and that sensitivity piece was like the last puzzle piece. I was like, okay, like it all makes sense now.

April Snow 5:08

Exactly. I feel like I could have said the same words. It I was in my graduate school program when I discovered it, and it literally just opened my eyes up because I was I was searching for the missing puzzle piece. What is it about me that I'm having a different experience in the world? And that was it.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Cause I think that there was always, like I say, I discovered the trait in my late 20s when I found the language and the research, but I always knew something was a little different, right? I always knew that I just experienced things different, right? My perception was different, or I felt things more deeply, or I didn't always quite understand how other people operated the way they did, and they didn't understand me. And but I just didn't have the words at the time.

April Snow 5:55

It's true. We do know before you can sense. I having a different experience than most other people. And people like to let you know that you're a little different, or or maybe do things a different way. And I it's so true that we're even when we're therapists, social workers in other professions similar to that, helping people, working with mental health, we still don't learn about the trait in school, right? You learned it on social media. I learned it through someone that just happened to share it with me at lunch.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Yeah.

April Snow 6:25

It just finds us, right? Um, it's just a testament to that we need more education. Absolutely. Yeah, I totally agree with that. Yeah. So as you've been on this discovery process on your journey, has your relationship to your sensitivity changed? I'm curious, you know, what before you had the language versus now really being you know immersed in highly sensitive world? What has shifted?

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Oh my god, I feel like so much has shifted. I feel you mentioned like just eyes opening, like there was that was the beginning, like the puzzle piece falling into place. But since then, as I continue to learn and integrate what I learned into my life, I feel like I've like come to terms with it or something. Like there's a lot more acceptance of it as part of me, like this acceptance that it's innate and it's it's not going away. So I can resist it. I can try to push through or try to make it different, which just causes a lot of stress and tension and burnout. Or I can work with it and it's not perfect. There's times when I feel frustrated by it, or I'm like trying to push something and someone else is like, hey, don't forget you're sensitive. And I'm like, oh, that's why that's so hard. That's what's going on for me. But I feel like for the majority of the time, I actually really appreciate it. I feel like it allows me to live life really fully and deeply, and I see the ways that it is a strength that like how it lets me just yeah, connect with people on a really deep level, but also like I just feel like wonder and joy so much so easily, right? Just like the little things in life impact me so deeply, and I'm just really grateful for that.

April Snow 8:10

I know it's such a gift to just to go through. I think about when as I go throughout my day, and just these little moments will just light me up, and other people may not even notice them. Yeah, like exactly what a blessing that is because it's constant fuel or inspiration or joy. Yeah. So it's the counterbalance to feeling overwhelmed or burn out a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and of course, like the burnout and the overwhelm is still difficult and still there. But I yeah, I think I don't know if I would trade it out at this point if it meant I didn't get all those positives, right? That easily joy and wonder.

April Snow 8:52

Yeah. It's true. I wouldn't trade it. I I don't know if it's because I know so much about it and am connected to those more positive experiences as an HSP, where a lot of folks maybe don't have access to that yet. I hope they will. Um I think it's accessible to all of us in the right balance. Um but yeah, knowing so much and and connecting so many of my positive experiences to back to the trait helps so much. It's oh yeah, yeah, this is part of that too. It's not just the overwhelm, it's not just the burnout, it's not just the big feelings.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

For sure. Yeah, I think when you can make that connection, it's a lot easier to accept. And yeah, I think a challenge for a lot of people is just getting messages throughout their lives that it's not okay or it's something to fix or something to change, and working through that, I think, is has helped me for sure.

April Snow 9:39

Exactly. Yeah, looking beyond the messages, not taking those as truth or the only version or the only uh experiences of being an HSP. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I'm curious. I like to ask this question to everyone. I'm curious if there's any ways that you don't fit the typical HSP mode. You talked earlier about sometimes you forget or you push yourself. I'm just curious if there's anything that comes to mind around.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I feel like this it probably is common to be an overachiever as an HSP or like a high achiever. And that's I think where the pushing comes in, which yeah, I think that is a common piece. But I think we actually chatted about this before just over Instagram. Around I haven't been able to figure out if I'm an introvert or extrovert. Oh, yeah, that's right. And yeah, and I think that I'm just an extroverted HSP, perhaps, because my partner and I, for example, I'm definitely highly sensitive. He's 100% not, but he's introverted and he needs so much more alone time than I do. And I'm like, I hear all these HSPs needing all this alone time, but I'm good with just a little bit. Like I like some time walking in nature, like reading my book or a little bit, but I'd be happy to be around people the majority of the time.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

So I feel like there's that piece, which I know, what was it like around 30% or so HSPs are extroverts? 30%, yep. Yeah. And then I think the other thing that comes to mind when you ask that question is yeah, I can be a homebody. I like my books and my art, but I also am really content to be like on a seven-day backpacking trip where I'm really pushing myself to my limits physically. I think that some of those high-intensity sports like rock climbing or like CrossFit, I really enjoy those. And if it's in nature, like even better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I feel like that might be the HSP piece coming in combination there. So you push yourself to your physical max, but then you get a night, beautiful view at the end or whatever. Exactly. Yeah, so I'm not sure if that's a common piece. Like you might know more about that if that's kind of yeah.

April Snow 11:42

I definitely think you're probably in the minority there, wanting social connection more of the time than alone time or wanting more high intensity, but it not unheard of because you know 30% of HSPs are extroverts, I think around the same amount, which makes sense because you have that third split when you talk about temperament and personality traits. 30% are also more high sensation seeking and wanting novelty and excitement. And it's just a it's just a reminder that not every HSP looks the same. Yeah, you know, absolutely experiences the same interests or needs, and that even if you don't fit the typical mole, like the quiet, homebody, super introverted HSP, you can still have the trait and be highly sensitive. It just comes in a lot of different packages. So I love that. I love that you're owning that I need more adventure and connection.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Yeah, I definitely say I think I am a bit of an adventurer, but also I do have to be careful because sometimes my adventures can lead me overstimulated. So it's definitely tough to find the balance sometimes. But yeah, I do adventuring, especially out in the wilderness. Yeah.

April Snow 12:52

Yeah, definitely a nice compliment to the risk taking. Yeah. How do you manage that balance? Because I know Elaine Aaron she'll say when you are more extroverted as an HSP, it's one foot on the brake, one foot on the gas at both at the same time, and those needs start to compete with each other. How I'm just curious, are there ways that you've found that you can manage those two impulses, those two needs?

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Yeah. Yeah, I think that I mean, with COVID and everything, I feel like I ended up on the side where I wasn't getting enough social stimulation. And depending on the week and what's going on, I'm probably more on that side. So I just try to really I just moderate how many things I keep booked in my schedule. And then I do try to carve out some rest afterwards. Yeah. And and I'm also mindful about the who and the when and the where. I think that while I really crave and love that social interaction, social like stimulation, how energizing or nurturing it feels really depends on who it is in the relationship and how safe I feel. Because I notice that's a big thing, right? If I feel really comfortable and safe, it's so energizing and I really crave it and love it, but it can really easily go the other way where I feel like totally exhausted afterwards.

April Snow 14:07

That's such a good point that the setting and the people involved makes all the difference in how it feels to your nervous system as an HSP. Totally. Yeah. Yes, such a difference. And the rest piece after, like we can cultivate our experience and be thoughtful about how we're doing things, when and with who we're doing them. And that way they can be more sustainable. Absolutely. Yeah, it's such a good point. I love that. I think it's really important. I want to do this, but in a certain context.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I combine my hikes with people who want to hike too, so that it's like whenever there's nature, it feels like a little bit more soothing, I think. Yeah, it's true.

April Snow 14:48

It's a bit of a balm. Yeah. Yeah. So you you mentioned a bit about how we can maybe push too far sometimes as HSPs, and a lot of HSPs struggle with burnout because of that in lots of different areas of their life, not just at work where we typically think about burnout, but also in personal uh realms too. Why is it so common for us? Could you say a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Oh, for sure. Yeah, I think that the trait, there's kind of two main reasons. One is that the characteristics of being highly sensitive do make us a bit more um susceptible to overstimulation, right? So burnout is essentially a state of emotional, physical, mental exhaustion due to excessive and prolonged stress.

Preventing Burnout and Setting Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 15:34

So if we are more, our nervous systems are a bit more sensitive to stress, then of course we're gonna be more susceptible to burnout. And that's really because one, we're more sensitive to subtleties in our environment, like we have more of awareness, we're just like picking up more than someone who's not, we can be in the same environment, but we're picking up a lot more. And then we're processing it so deeply. We're integrating all of that information and making sense of it, which is great in a lot of ways, but takes a lot of energy. And then whatever you know, we come out with, like we feel really deeply about it. Everything's just a little bit more intense. And we can become overstimulated or experience stress and regulate and come back down to the rest of relaxation response and be okay. But if we're not able to do that, if we stay in that overstimulated stress state for too long, then it can accumulate into burnout. And yeah, I think that's why I think we see it more in highly sensitive people. And then I would say the other major piece is like our work environments and society aren't really conducive to sensitive folks. And a lot of the workplaces aren't really supportive of anyone, right? If they're super productivity focused, if they're not really taking care of their employees' health, if they're not really supporting their well-being and it's all about the bottom line, then it sets us up for burnout. And then if we have this sensitive trait and we're not sure how to set boundaries or regulate our nervous systems, then we're just a bit more likely that we might end up burning out.

April Snow 17:13

Yeah, it's true. Because of the pace we're living now and the space, the kinds of spaces that we work in, most people could be susceptible to burnout. Absolutely. Yeah. It's just too much for the human brain and nervous system to take. Uh but then if you are highly sensitive, where you're more spongy, I like to call it, right? You're spongy, yes. I love that. Right? You're picking everything up. When you were talking, it's like, that's just a regular normal day. Let alone if you turn the stress up. Um so we're absorbing everything, we we're then feeling it and needing to process and make sense of it. And the more we take in, the less space we have for rest and decompression, then yeah, we get stuck in that stress state. You said it's like a prolonged exhaustion stress. You mentioned if we can come back regularly to places of rest and safety, then we can avoid the burnout.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I we can. And yes and no, I think if we that's the goal, right? Our nervous system is meant to go up and be activated and then come back down and rest. And so if we're able to do that, we can prevent it. But also if we're going back into a work environment where we're getting activated over and over. And as a social worker and someone who supports social workers, that's the work environments that social workers are in are like super emotionally charged, or like very fast paced, right? Understaffed, like the caseloads people are holding are so big. And you're if you're highly sensitive, you're extremely empathetic. All social workers go into the field because they care. Right. And so there's that emotional tug of whatever work you're doing. And so I think if we continue, we can regulate ourselves throughout our work days and set really healthy boundaries, that can help immensely. And it also depends on on the workplace, right? And if they're willing to accept some of those boundaries or support some of those needs that we have as well.

April Snow 19:18

Yeah, it's true. It there's a couple parts to that. There's one is what can you do for yourself to set your own boundaries to make sure you come back to yourself, get to those places of rest again, but also it how much is the work environment you're in able to meet you there, to accept your boundaries. So yes, we have part of that we do ourselves, but then also we it needs to be received. And that's yeah, unfortunately not always the case. But I think for HSPs, there's a often a lot more available than we think there is.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Would you say that? For sure. Yeah, no, I agree with that completely. I think that yeah, I think if we start out in a workplace that is really unhealthy and really unsupportive of those things, sometimes we can think, oh, that's all there is. But I talk to social workers every day and I know that there are social workers working in really healthy work environments. And I think that sometimes for highly sensitive folks, what we need is to be a little bit creative too. Maybe we do this type of work part-time, or maybe we go into like policy work and less frontline work, or maybe we specialize in a certain area that like is really exciting, or we like try out a few places till we find that boss that like really gets us. And yeah, there's absolutely chances and opportunities to do this work and to not burn out.

April Snow 20:38

Yeah, yeah, it's true. There's I think if we just expand our view a little bit and get creative with whatever field you're in, especially therapists and social workers, especially, I there's so many more options than when we realize. Yeah. Yes, yeah, I love you. Can you be really excited about that? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

I am really excited. Yeah, I just, yeah. And again, I think being in the social work, social media space, I'm seeing folks doing all kinds of creative things. I'm like, wow, I never thought of that. Yeah, like we don't have to just follow this one path. I think part of boundaries too, right? Is just giving ourselves permission to do things differently than maybe our colleagues or our supervisor, even, or whatever we thought was the right path, right? It's okay to do things differently. And I think is how since people often we have to.

April Snow 21:29

We absolutely have to. And that's why we exist. We see the different perspective, right? We we have a lot of ideas and we can see 10 steps ahead. So, yes, absolutely. Even if your boss is not doing it the way you would do it, even more reads and say, Hey, what do you think about this? Or yeah, I have a sense this might work better, or if you allow me to work in this way, here's what I can offer. It opens up so much. And yeah, and and today, thankfully, there's like you said, you see a lot of social workers and um other folks on social media doing things a lot differently. There's so much available.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Yeah. And you know what you just shared, like those conversations you can have or those things you can bring, like I think that's really tied with understanding the trait, right? And of do your work around recognizing the benefits, then yeah, we can communicate that to our boss. And it's and I think that comes along when we set our boundaries too. It's hey, I need such and such, or I can't do such and such because this not doing that or doing it this way will allow me to better support my clients or will allow me to feel better in the field or whatever it is. And yeah, I just think there's so linked there with what you were just saying.

April Snow 22:43

Yeah, help them see what's possible, and then it benefits everybody.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

For sure. And I just think there's so many things about sensitive folks that really could benefit the helping field. And there's a good reason that a lot of us are drawn to it.

April Snow 22:57

Exactly. It's true. We're very suited for it. When in balance, I would say. When in balance, yeah. Sure. So I'm you talk a lot about burnout prevention of boundaries, and I imagine comes from a personal experience. I'm wondering if you could share a time where you experienced burnout, and then how did you come out of it?

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Absolutely. Yeah. So I burnt out in the first nine months of my first social work job. That was like a very challenging time in my life. At that point, I did not know what anything about sensitivity or neurodivergence at that time. So I accepted a job that I think it was, I was even just in it temporary, but I knew it was really the workload of three people. And I went into it knowing that, but I really didn't have great boundaries in place. Like I really was struggling with codependency. Like I didn't really feel comfortable saying no. And then I had a lot of struggle with like internal boundaries too. So I was like basically, I couldn't let go if I didn't get something done perfectly, or I didn't get like when there's that much when the workload is that high, you either have to let some things fall through the cracks or you do like an okay-ish job and a lot of things. And I couldn't quite set those boundaries with myself. And also I was just thinking about work at home all the time. I didn't have as real good separation between work and home life. And yeah, it led to really depressive symptoms. I felt like I just had this dark cloud following me around. It impacted my relationships and some health issues and mental health issues. And yeah, it was really challenging. And I will say, props to my younger self, that I recognized, okay, this isn't working. And I actually applied for another job that I was in a master's level role, and they wanted to give me a permanent line. And I was like, nope, this like temporary bachelor level, like lower pay line. I can just like I know from the job description of people who've worked there that is a better suited to my sensitivity, my needs, and I will feel healthier in that role. So I applied, I interviewed, I got accepted for that role. But I was in a unionized position and the managers, I gave them tons of notice up front, but the managers took a really long time to post the line or do anything with it. And basically, there was this like clause in there or protocol where they could redeploy people. So they redeployed them back to the line I was trying to leave. So I quit. Great, okay. This is I quit. I just so I was like, I tried to leave on good terms and set them up so that for success and do it all like without rocking the boat or making anyone upset, but that didn't work out. And in the end, I was like, no, this is not working for me. So I quit and I just worked casual mental health intake position. And that really gave me the space where like I hadn't enough income coming in, but I had more time to myself to like really rest and recuperate. Because I think once we hit that point of burnout, I talk a little about boundaries, but I think if if we're already at the state of burnout, really what we need is we need to recover, right? We need to rest, we need to reset our nervous systems. We really need to just take care of ourselves before we can dive into making any big changes like that. So that allowed me to do that. And that position was just like it, it just worked out really well with what I needed at that time. And even though that was really scary, right? And I definitely had some people, yeah. Oh, I had some people being like, oh no, your references or this or that. But I really stood my ground and I'm very proud of myself for that. And it did work out, it did work out well in the end.

unknown 26:41

Yeah.

April Snow 26:42

I think you said something really important, which was you were getting these messages that if you quit or if you you make this change, it's gonna hurt you down the road. But in the moment, something was telling you, I have to quit. I'm wondering if you could share. Was there a sign or something that was happening for you that you knew this is it?

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Yeah, it's not pretty. I just I just remember like crying uncontrollably, like in the bathroom. And I think I also had a meeting with the union rep to see if there was something I could do. And when I was talking to him, he was just like a very kind, sweet, just had such a comforting presence. And I just I cried the whole conversation like uncontrollably. And even though I am a very like emotional, deep feeling person, I cry often, but I don't usually cry in work settings, like I can usually contain it and do my own work on my own time. But these are like two situations where it was like I felt completely out of control. And to me, that was like obviously something's not okay, right? Like the fact that it's this is my body like saying, screaming at me. And I was having, like I said, just some like health issues. I could just tell it wasn't a fit. But yeah, and I think there was also just it's really hard to describe just like a hardness or there's like a this tension, right? When I thought about staying, it was like everything was just like no. Yes, like I could just feel it in my body saying no.

April Snow 28:10

Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like there was a lot of signs that you had just hit your max. So, and I appreciate that you said there's a difference between being a big feeler as an HSP and feeling like your emotions are uncontained, that they're just spilling over in places that you normally wouldn't feel comfortable or don't want to express in that way.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Yeah, for sure, because I was lucky that this union rep was such a kind person and had such a lovely response, but it might not have been the safest place to be that vulnerable. And I think that normally I have a bit more of control over okay, who are my people that I can really show this to, especially at work. And yeah, it felt like the barrier was down.

April Snow 28:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Yeah.

April Snow 28:58

We get very vulnerable in those moments. And so you played out a few different steps that you first off,

Setting Boundaries to Prevent Burnout

April Snow 29:05

burnout is not something we can get through quickly once we get to that stage. We need a lot of rest. We need usually need to make a big change. Would you say?

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Yeah, I would say definitely we need a big change before we can bounce back. And that doesn't always necessarily mean leaving the position completely. I I feel like I should mention that in this role my boundaries weren't great, and some of it was on me being a brand new social worker and and not knowing how to navigate that. Like I did try to speak up and ask for help, and I was felt very isolated and alone. There wasn't anyone really hearing my requests or what I needed. So I think that sometimes it is helpful if we're well enough to try to set the boundaries first before we just get up and leave. So if you're not sure if it's like you want to just completely quit, like I did and just jump ship, I think like often just taking a leave, right? Like sometimes we just take a medical leave, talk to your doctor, get some support from health professionals, which which I did, I guess I didn't mention that, but I did get some support by seeing a nature path and a therapist and things at that time. And yeah, get your support system in place and then at the very least take a leave in one to three months at least, probably not just a week. Yeah, not just a week. Yeah. If you're at that point where you're like hitting the wall. Yeah.

April Snow 30:31

Yeah, I appreciate that. There's a lot of steps you can take along the way when you maybe sense burnout is starting. Maybe, okay, I'm feeling more tired. You know, you talked about feeling a little bit more depressed, foggy. Maybe you're starting to get sick more often. They're asking for help, setting those internal boundaries. And when we say internal boundaries, it sounds leaning away from perfectionism, letting things be good enough. Um, maybe checking with yourself, how much am I giving? Yeah, for sure. Who am I spending time with, things like that? Anything else that you would say about internal boundaries in case people haven't. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Because I think at that time I didn't really have some of them really well established. And I think if I went back, I would really work on my emotional boundaries. I think I would implement practices of things I do now where one, I come back to myself, right? If I notice that I'm getting really caught up in other people's emotions and energies, I have practices where I come back and like those are other people's, right? What am I feeling? And some practices to help me let go of those or hand back the responsibility. Because just because we can sense and feel what someone else is feeling doesn't mean we're responsible for it. Doesn't mean we have to fix it or change it. So that's where I see that emotional boundary piece is just that separation that okay, I can see what someone's feeling and I have compassion for it, but I don't need to carry that burden as my own. Yes. So I would be implementing some practices around that, as well as some like end-of-the-day rituals to really help me separate work from home life and again come back to myself. Because I think that's the purpose of these boundaries is to make sure our needs are met and to take care of ourselves. Yeah. And then, of course, I would probably have worked on my communication skills around saying no when it was too much or yeah. But I think I asked for help. I don't think I actually said, Hey, I can't do this until I get to the point where I was like, I can't stay in the role.

April Snow 32:35

Exactly. So coming back to self, setting down other people's experiences, emotions, needs to make sure you have enough for you. Yeah. And then seeing where you can pull in other resources. Absolutely. Yeah. And then I think there is a lot we can do internally before we even get other people involved with boundaries. Absolutely. Absolutely there is.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Yeah, I think that there is a lot of benefit, a lot of work we can do there.

April Snow 33:05

Any other boundaries that come to mind when you're thinking about burnout specifically? Yeah, that might support HSPs in preventing burnout. I know we we mentioned quite a few, but I just want to see if there's anything else that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Yeah. So I feel like we talked quite a bit about kind of internal boundaries, emotional boundaries. And I always look at time and energy boundaries together.

April Snow 33:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Because I think as as highly sensitive people, we talked about that the depth of processing, we really need time to pause and reflect. That's just how we're wired when we're looking at our schedules or how we spend our time, making sure we we add that in, right? Processing time and not just thinking about how much time something takes, but how much energy something takes. I like that. And so I really encourage folks to when they're making their schedules or figuring out what they can fit into a day, that the energy piece is really considered. And along with the energy, like there's you can use that in your schedule and how you're using your time, but I think that often we can expend energy in unnecessary ways. So I think it's really helpful to pay attention to like energy leaks, right? So those like subtle little things that like are taking our attention or take sucking up our energy that like we don't need to be there, right? Which there's so many things that that could be, right? One of the biggest ones I think I found in different workplaces was the office gossip, right? Or even after the meeting. But it could even be things like having a really cluttered space, right? Where your attention keeps getting pulled to things or having your notifications up on your email or your phone. So you're like trying to do a task, but this little thing keeps popping up in your vision or a sound. Um, so like really thinking about those types of things that how can you reduce the amount of energy you have to expend on things that you don't need to expend it on?

April Snow 35:07

Yeah, it's true. There's so much grabbing for our attention from other people to just things in our environment or on our devices. Yeah, we can actually opt out or turn off a lot of those distractions, energy leaks, as you called it. Uh, and then we could free up a little bit more time for processing, for doing something that's you know beneficial to us. Could open up or for connecting and socializing, right? Or working, whatever it is. Yeah, whatever it is. Yeah. And I think it comes back to that piece we talked about earlier, which is there's a lot more available than I think we typically realize as far as what we have control over, what we can do for ourselves, how we can maybe even live or make choices a little bit differently than other people around us. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Yeah. Yeah, such a good point. Yeah. So I think those are some of the ways I'm just thinking about like choices we can make. I think sometimes it's just getting back to those basics of taking a lunch break or like leaving work on time, right? Like not answering work email at home. Some of those things that we can easily slip up on. And I think those are things that we can we can hold ourselves to. And I do like to think of it as like a gift we're giving ourselves, right? When we set those kinds of limits.

April Snow 36:23

Yeah. I love that. Yeah. A gift to ourselves. That's beautiful. So if someone, we've talked a little bit about the different types of boundaries, internal, emotional, physical time and energy boundaries. We've talked about some examples of what those look like. But let's say someone is starting, they're starting to think about setting boundaries, maybe for the first time. Where do you suggest that they could start if those boundaries are feeling a little scary, they're feeling out of reach? Maybe they never had boundaries modeled for them when they were growing up, or maybe setting boundaries, which is common for a lot of HSPs, brings up a lot of guilt or fear of conflict. So, where do you suggest someone start if boundaries feel out of reach?

SPEAKER_01 37:04

Yeah. First of all, if anyone's listening to this and is feeling that way, I want to say you're not alone and I've been there. We didn't have boundaries in my family growing up. So it's something I learned as an adult. And I remember how scary it was. Like it was terrifying. I didn't even know that I had the right to set boundaries. I did feel a lot of guilt and fear. And I will say that now I really see that boundaries set me free. And I think that it is, yeah, I think it's something great to work towards, but take little baby steps. I would say it's okay to start really small and to like practice and build up confidence

Setting Boundaries for Burnout Prevention

SPEAKER_01 37:43

in it. If it's boundaries with other people, I would say start with people that feel really safe or comfortable, those who you know will understand and respond well. You've seen them do that in the past. And but like you were saying, April, there's so much we can do just internally without even having a conversation with someone. That might feel like the safest place to start, is just setting some kind of little guidelines or limits with ourselves, or even just having a practice of coming back to ourselves, right? Like, where do you, where is your attention, right? Like when you have downtime or you're off, are you constantly thinking about other people? Are you thinking about work? Like, where are you worrying about something? Like paying attention to that and seeing if you can build some practices that bring your attention back to yourself. Even that is like a type of boundary that we can set with ourselves, and that can be a helpful start. I hope it's okay if I share a couple other things. No, this is great.

April Snow 38:39

Yeah, because it's great, yeah. Bringing attention back to self. Oh, that's actually available without fear of conflict.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

And I think in terms of communicating boundaries with others, like if just a straight up no or a real firm boundary isn't feeling accessible, I would start with someone is requesting something of you, asking something of you, and to just start with saying, can I get back to you? Right. Just giving yourself some time. Yeah, buy yourself some time, even if the answer ends up being yes, right? To just build that in where you're again gifting that to yourself. You give yourself time to think about it. When you say yes, you really mean yes. And that feels really good too. And boundaries aren't all or nothing, they're flexible, they're context specific. So it's okay to make compromises too. Like I find that sometimes is a is a nice way to start out is like saying no or some type of refusal, but then offering a compromise. Sometimes that can feel like a gentler way, or just a way that, you know, like if like you said, worry about the conflict piece. It's you're still showing, like, hey, I still care. I'm still wanting to support you, can't support you in this way, but here's what I can do. And I find that can be a great way to start.

April Snow 39:55

Yeah, because boundaries don't. I think we have this assumption that boundaries are harsh or cruel or just like a form of disconnection, but they can be gentle and caring. Would you say that's true?

SPEAKER_01 40:06

A hundred percent. Yeah. I think like how we deliver our boundaries, right? And this is where I think highly sensitive people are like we're set up really well. That we know what tone is kind and compassionate. Like we know how to deliver things in a really empathetic way. So I think you can deliver it with kindness. You can keep that in your heart as you deliver your boundary or communicate your boundary. And something that, like you said, there is this belief, like that can definitely be a big barrier to setting boundaries, is this belief that, oh, it's mean, right? It's gonna hurt the other person. And of course, sometimes we set a boundary and someone's disappointed or they're hurt. But I think it actually helps us be more compassionate because if we are constantly overextending ourselves, our needs aren't getting met, and we're just giving, giving, sucking up our energy, we're becoming overwhelmed and overstimulated. A lot of us end up feeling resentful, frustrated, right? Like we can end up feeling not great towards someone else because we're over, we're doing something we don't want to do for them. And if we like set some limits and honor our needs, it's actually a lot easier to feel compassionate, right? Because even though we're highly empathetic, we can experience compassion fatigue. And when we're burnt out, it's a like a lot of that kind of goes out the window, right? Or if we're really overstimulated in the moment, it's a lot harder to be compassionate.

April Snow 41:32

It really is. And that compassion, that empathy, it's finite, right? We don't have an unlimited reserve of it. And when we're on empty, that resentment starts to come in. We start to create the same dynamic we were trying to avoid and not setting boundaries. Absolutely. Yeah. And so then we end up harming the relationships that we were trying to protect with no boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

Such a good point. Such a good point, April. Yeah. So it's if we can do it up front, then yeah, I think it just we're able to tap into this compassionate side. And I also think that direct can be kind. I'm sure, again, as sensitive folks, we can tell sometimes when someone's there's something going on under the surface, but no, they're not really being clear or direct with what it is. And I think sometimes, I know for me, I don't really want someone like doing something for me just out of guilt or obligation and then feeling annoyed with me later.

April Snow 42:34

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

So I'd rather them just say it's even though sometimes it it sucks. I think there's a bit of kindness there, clarity, right? And then it's okay, we're on the same page. And it can actually be really good for relationships.

April Snow 42:45

Yeah, exactly. It's more authentic and the other person actually knows what's going on with you. And because they don't know unless we communicate that. And you're right, they probably don't want us acting out of guilt or obligation, and so that ends up harm, you know, harming the relationship in the long run. Where if we can sit in a moment of discomfort, the relationship gets stronger over time. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so lots of good ways to enter into boundaries if you're just starting, start with yourself. Just notice where am I giving my attention when I'm in those quiet moments by myself? And can I call my attention back to me and my needs? So buying yourself time, just saying, hey, I'll let you know. You might still get to that yes, like you said, but at least then you're starting to practice pausing and checking in with yourself. That's the first stage in in the boundary process. And then yeah, practice with safe people, and then you can also compromise and say, Yeah, I'll say yes, but in a different on different terms. Yeah. I love so many ways to get to boundaries and so many different types of boundaries. I don't know, there's just lots of possibility there.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

For sure. I know boundaries is such a big topic, right? There's so huge. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot under that umbrella.

April Snow 44:03

If folks that are listening are struggling with burnout, they're struggling with boundaries. Is there a message you could share with them?

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Yeah, I think if someone is like in burnout right now, I would just say that you're not alone and it's not your fault, right? I think that there are so many factors that lead to us burning out, and a lot of us haven't learned boundaries, right? Or we're working in environments that kind of expect something unfair. And I would just say that there is hope of recovery. And yeah, because lots of us have burnt out and have made it through. Yeah. Definitely.

April Snow 44:39

Yeah, I love that. You're not alone, it's not your fault, and there are ways out of it. Mammy, thank you. I know you have a resource, a helpful resource for burnout prevention. Can you tell listeners a little bit more about it and where to find it?

SPEAKER_01 44:53

Yeah, so I have a course, Boundaries for Burnout Prevention, quite on topic with what we've been chatting about. And it's essentially a self-directed six-module course that I create specifically for highly sensitive social workers, but I really like most of the skills and tools that are in there applicable to really any helper or healer, like therapist, healthcare worker. And it's really for any tender-hearted, deep-feeling helper or healer who wants to find a way to excel in their career without sacrificing themselves, without burning out. And yeah, really finding ways to honor your sensitivity. I really think of boundaries as honoring your sensitivity. So in the course, um, each module has many video lessons from me, as well as a workbook and meditations, which I find um are a great way to embody some of those internal and emotional boundaries we were talking about. They're abstract. And so I find those meditations are a great way to drop into that and really sense that, really feel what that means. And then also some self-regulating ones, because as we start to communicate and try new boundaries, we we do want to come back and like regulate our nervous systems. Yeah. And I go through a bunch of different types of boundaries, the barriers to boundaries, and also communicating boundaries, specifically with clients, coworkers, and your boss. And also, when is the boundary to leave? That's a big question a lot of people ask.

April Snow 46:24

Yeah, so there's a whole lesson on that. I love that. Yeah, I love that you're it's very experiential and there's lots of actionable items, it sounds so you can put those boundaries into practice.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Absolutely. I wanted people to be able to take it and like really apply it in their lives. And yeah, the doors are open right now, which I'm really excited about. So we're diving into round

Healing From Burnout With Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 46:47

two. So if there's anyone listening that wants to join.

April Snow 47:01

What I hope you'll take away is that it is possible to heal from burnout and that boundaries are the compassionate choice, not just for you, but for everyone else as well. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Sensitive Stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Uh reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated. For behind the scenes content and more HSP resources, you can sign up for my email list or follow Sensitive Strengths on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Check out the show notes or sensitivestories.com for all the resources from today's episode. Thanks for listening.