Kirsten Davidson 0:00

I've experienced this younger parts that didn't get affection or attention in some regard and are then seeking redemption in adulthood and they want to be seen, they want to be loved, and this can come off in this kind of desperation of reaching, of accommodating, of making sure the other person's happy so they can redeem themselves.

Welcome To Sensitive Stories

April Snow 0:29

Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host, psychotherapist and author April Snow. I invite you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm. In this episode, I talk with Kristen Davidson about the distinction between caretaking from a place of empathy and people pleasing from a place of fear of abandonment, connecting with all the parts of ourselves to heal and guide us in times of insecurity, and how to understand the roots of these experiences. Kirsten is a registered psychotherapist and the founder of Mind the Gap Psychotherapy, where she supports adults, couples, and families in moving through disconnection, emotional overwhelm, and stuck patterns toward more self-led, connected ways of being. Her work is grounded in relational, trauma-informed, and existential approaches, helping clients explore what lies beneath their patterns with curiosity and compassion. Beyond the therapy room, she contributes to broader mental health conversations through public speaking and her writing for Psychology Today, where she explores relationships, identity, and personal growth. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in.

Early Clues Of High Sensitivity

April Snow 2:19

Hi, April. Thank you so much for having me. Of course. Yeah, I'm so excited to talk with you today and get to know more about your story. But before we start, I always like to ask this question if you could share a little bit more about when or how you realize that you're highly sensitive.

Kirsten Davidson 2:35

Yeah, I love that. That I think traces back to probably my inception, but I didn't know it then. My mom actually has a it's funny, I'll share this. My mom has a story of when she was pregnant with me and she went to see a healer of sorts and they felt that there was something going on there, something special. It sounds cheesy, but now that I'm in the work, it's like, oh, there is this intuition and there is this empathy that, you know, other kiddos as I grew up didn't necessarily share. And that's when I started to notice when I was in elementary school, I would say, when you start to notice relational dynamics. And I found myself observing observing others. So I was there, but I wouldn't quite get lost in it the way, like in play or in like conversation or learning the way that other kids would. And I remember thinking that was normal at the time until I was at a certain age where I could observe, oh, they seem to be experiencing this moment differently. And I seem to be getting a little meta about it, like thinking about the moment or thinking about thinking, yeah, there's we found a diary of mine when I I think I was in the third grade where I was journaling and making charts on when my friends got into arguments because I wanted there to be just peace. So I was like tracking and psychoanalyzing. I don't remember doing this, but so there were signs. There were signs at an early age that I was thinking a little bit differently.

April Snow 4:11

Yes, I love that. You're right. It's like it's there from inception. And I haven't ever heard anyone put it that way, but it's so true that we're born with this sensitivity, this awareness, that intuition and empathy. And also sounds like there was a little bit of a relational therapist budding from an early age. Totally, totally patterns. Yeah. Interesting how it and I hear that from a lot of people. There was this knowing that something's different about me. I think differently, I observe the world differently, I relate differently than other people. Yeah, with that kind of meta-awareness or cognition and just being able to see all the nuances that other people miss. It's incredible to have that viewpoint as a young child, isn't it?

Kirsten Davidson 4:56

Yeah. Yeah. I think at the time there was, I remember talking to my dad about it because he shares this. There at times was a sense of overwhelm. Like I would say, I wish I didn't observe so much. Like I wish I didn't take in so much and absorb other people's emotions and their gestures and that kind of hyper-vigilance that can come with this. And now I'm really grateful for it. And I think it it really shaped me into the therapist I am, obviously, into the person I am, the partner, the daughter, all those roles. But yeah, especially in therapy for sure.

April Snow 5:31

Yeah, it can be a lot to navigate before you have the awareness of the tools to understand all those layers. But yeah, it's definitely a gift as a therapist. It's probably the greatest gift to be able to bring the empathy and the intuition to our work is yeah, in this role. It's pretty incredible.

Why HSPs Carry Emotional Labor

April Snow 5:51

Yeah. So I'm curious just to kind of start to dive into that work a little bit more. You know, what would you say makes HSPs more likely to be the caretakers, the emotional leaders in their relationships? What have you seen?

Kirsten Davidson 6:05

I like that term emotional leader, kind of taking the reins, if you will, on like dialogue around emotions, maybe because they're more or we are more attuned to them. Yeah. I think back to what I said before about hypervigilance. So for listeners that aren't familiar with that, basically it's this. I always refer to evolutionary psychology in my work. So we'll think of like predator versus prey. So a prey is like a squirrel. And everyone knows how a squirrel moves. They're like all jittery and jumpy and like watching and scanning, and they move so fast, right? And they have to to protect themselves versus predator. We'll say, like out in the wild, a lion is just like lounging on the rock in the sun, like they don't need to be on guard in that same way. So whenever I think of hypervigilance, I think of that kind of squirrel mindset that's like, what's the next move? What's someone else's next move? What do I have to watch for? And in relationships, I think that can be both beautiful and also very exhausting. So it's really to answer your question, I think it's around like, how does your partner navigate that with you? Does that show up in a way that brings depth to the relationship, or does it bring panic and fear? Yeah.

April Snow 7:25

Yeah, it's a very, it's very much tied to how our nervous systems are responding. And if we are on that high alert all the time, is you know, I like to pull apart hypervigilance and high sensitivity. Are we alert or is it more just a neutral observation? But we do get into those heightened states where we feel like we have to hold it all, we have to catch it all and notice it. And I really appreciate you saying this is something that stood out to me in what you share publicly about your work of finding that partnership, that balance where we're mutually stepping in and doing the work. And yeah, how can we make sure we're not only being the person in the relationship holding, doing the caretaking? Yeah, taking care of all the emotional labor.

Kirsten Davidson 8:08

I think that looks like you know, when we can release some of that, not release the caretaker, but release, as you're saying, the vigilance and just be an observer. And I think the difference would be saying, like, hey, I'm noticing this in our relationship. Can we talk about that? Or I'm noticing this in your behavior. Can I get clarity on that instead of noticing it and then maybe making assumptions and internalizing? Yeah. Yeah. And maybe taking on the burden of fixing.

April Snow 8:36

Totally. I see that a lot in well, I've seen that in myself, but also in the HSPs I work with, where because we're the one noticing and we're feeling it so deeply, a lot of times we might then extend that responsibility into needing to fix or feel for other people. And it's like, well, we can share. We can share the load. What do you find that is the first step, perhaps, you know, starting small with correcting that balance of let's say I am more of the emotional caretaker in my relationship? What is something maybe that you would walk a client through or suggest to a client?

Caretaking Or People Pleasing Energy

Kirsten Davidson 9:13

Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. I think actually, even before I answer, I want to clarify and maybe get clarity from you too on this people pleasing versus caretaking. And I think those questions. Yeah, I think those can be very different. And I'm like, oh, which way do I want to take this?

April Snow 9:29

That's a good distinction. And I'm now I'm thinking for myself, how would I decipher the two? Hmm. Are they synonymous? Perhaps. There maybe is a different energy where caretaking is I'm coming at it with empathy, with care in the word. And then people pleasing, I feel like I'm more anxious where I'm trying to prevent criticism, anger, frustration. That's just for me personally. I find there's a different energy that I bring to one versus the other. I'm curious for you personally, how would you hold both of those?

Kirsten Davidson 10:06

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's I mean, that's a perfect answer in terms of like what is what are the differences. Um, and I'll speak to both of them now, right? So when you talk about when you talk about people pleasing and you're noticing there's more anxiety in your system around that, that makes sense to me as a trauma response, right? As a I'm a trauma-informed therapist, so I'm looking at everything through that lens of like what's the behavior that we're doing that's like overcorrecting for needing affection and wanting love. And maybe at one point we felt abandoned. And so it's this like it's this like reaching. Um yeah, and versus caretaking, I think, you know, caretaking can be merged with people pleasing, but also as a standalone, it can be, you know, I get joy out of, I don't know, doing the dishes or something for my partner. This is my partner does the dishes for me. So just to give him some credit, but just that joy, that genuine, I think, especially from parent to child that can come from like there's no trauma response there and just wanting to care for.

April Snow 11:12

That really tracks for me. And I'm thinking as you're talking about people pleasing and this kind of overcorrecting, having that hyper-vigilant energy in there. Could we say we're getting into maybe some fawning? Totally, which is a trauma response, an extension of that freeze cycle where there's maybe a safety component. I'm maybe worried about how this person will react, or and I don't, I'm not saying a physical safety concern, but an emotional safety concern. So now I'm seeing them on a spectrum personally, yeah, yeah.

Kirsten Davidson 11:44

I agree. I agree. I think they can be separate, but they can definitely overlap. Yeah. So to kind of go back when you say, how could we help someone step away from people pleasing? Um, or if it's caretaking, weaved with people pleasing, it does come down to well, what's their story around that trauma response? And it's so vastly different per person. There do seem to be themes around abandonment, around younger parts of this person, myself included, I've experienced this younger parts that didn't get affection or attention in some regard and are then seeking redemption in adulthood. And they they want to be seen, they want to be loved, and this can come off in this kind of like desperation of reaching, of accommodating, of um making sure the other person's happy so they can kind of they can redeem themselves. And that's not always adaptive, right?

April Snow 12:45

Right. And it's a great way to put it this redemption. Like I'm wanting to complete a cycle, I'm wanting to feel that sense of closure. So if we've been abandoned, and can we maybe I know that's a word that's commonly used, but can we get a little bit more specific in how we're talking about it in this context? Oh,

Abandonment Wounds And Insecurity Patterns

April Snow 13:04

yeah. When I think about abandonment, I think, well, then maybe a parent has left completely or completely disengaged or some type of a caregiver, important figure.

Kirsten Davidson 13:13

But are there levels of abandonment? Definitely. Yeah. I think getting even smaller, like we'll say yeah, a trauma that maybe for someone on the outside they wouldn't think this is a trauma. Um, but this could be a moment, like this could come down to a moment where someone didn't feel heard.

April Snow 13:33

Yes, a misagrement.

Kirsten Davidson 13:35

Yeah. So even like amongst a friend group, you know, it could be with a parent, just a sense of they are not as important in that moment. And I bring it down to this little my micro moment because that's what comes up in my work with clients and with myself and my own therapy. When we explore these younger versions of ourselves, they'll kind of show us memories and it'll be like, oh my God, like I totally forgot that one thing happened. Like maybe you got you got teased in one instance and it never happened again. But for some reason, that's what's stuck. And then there's this constant seeking, like, no, no, I didn't deserve that. I want to make sure that never happens again.

April Snow 14:22

Right. And it leaves an imprint, whether we're conscious of it or not. And this is incredibly common with highly sensitive people because of our brains, how they work, and we're constantly bringing back those memories, and we're wired to prevent having the same mistakes or hurtful experiences twice. So we're especially vigilant to prevention and get stuck in people pleasing or caretaking to try to protect ourselves, to not feel that discomfort again. So, yeah, abandonment is a big root of people pleasing, you're saying. Yeah. Is there any other pieces around that, any other roots that you commonly see, or do you feel like that's the primary one?

Kirsten Davidson 15:02

Yeah, I would say that's probably one of the most common ones. Another root in people pleasing could be this sense of insecurity. And the insecurity doesn't have to come from abandonment. This could be insecurity around, say, like body image or insecurity around intelligence. Like it could be any type of personal insecurity and then this desire to be liked because you might not like yourself.

April Snow 15:32

Right. Right. You're trying to it sounds cliche a little bit, but to fill that that space within absolutely right. Just to find some evidence that, okay, I'm okay.

Kirsten Davidson 15:44

Yeah. Like if someone else likes me, then maybe I can like me.

April Snow 15:47

Yeah. And that's a big source of esteem for sensitive people, is our empathy of caretaking. I see that all the time. I see it myself. It's like, okay, I've got to keep that in check, especially as a therapist. I even more likely just to want to give and support, but just being mindful of okay, what's at the root here? What's driving this need? Yes, we have to be really careful about that.

Kirsten Davidson 16:10

Yeah.

April Snow 16:11

Intention about it.

Kirsten Davidson 16:12

Yeah. I'm curious. I know you're the one interviewing me here, but I'm curious what you notice in your work as the route to some of these patterns.

April Snow 16:21

Well, I think what you're saying is exactly what I'm seeing as well. It's usually something relational, right? Where not feeling attuned to, not feeling seen in early relationships, whether with parents, caregivers, teachers, anyone who's influential, first relationships, where there's some wound that gets imprinted, and then we're trying to find that sense of enoughness later on. You know, those younger parts really do start to yell to feel seen and to feel those cycles completed. And for HSPs, I think for us, a lot of times we do get conditioned to be selfless because if you lay out a menu of all the qualities of being highly sensitive, empathy is one of the few that's actually celebrated because people they enjoy it. They enjoy receiving our empathy, they enjoy, you know, us identifying their emotional needs and just taking care of them. So there's a lot of reinforcement around the caretaking qualities that we have, care taking abilities.

Kirsten Davidson 17:19

So true.

April Snow 17:20

And so it's just a way that we can feel okay about ourselves when we're getting a lot of other messages that say you have to change or that you're not enough. So we really drill down into that part of ourselves and it creates an imbalance, right? So the other parts don't get attention, they don't get seen or airtime, and we think, oh, this is the one way that I can feel okay about myself, is I'm gonna take care of others when really we need, yeah, we need to take care of ourselves and be able to receive as well, which is why again, why I appreciate you calling attention to that balance in relationships and not just romantic but platonic as well.

Kirsten Davidson 17:56

Yeah, it's so important. Absolutely. I think even in just relationship to ourselves, also, right? Like, how do we speak to ourselves? Do we speak to ourselves? Are we super disconnected because we're prioritizing other people? Yeah, and just to build on the abandonment thing, I was just reflecting as you were talking there that sometimes abandonment isn't neglect, sometimes abandonment is abuse. And so an abandonment wound can come from a parent abandoning their role as a parent or a friend abandoning their role as a friend being really aggressive. Yeah.

April Snow 18:38

I'm holding that and taking it in. So we have neglect and we have abuse. So you can, I'm thinking of that as I may not have neglected someone, but then I could still be causing harm.

Kirsten Davidson 18:50

Absolutely.

April Snow 18:50

I'm still there. I'm sure a lot of us have experienced that at some level where the person is there, they're present, they're in our lives, but there's a different kind of abandonment, whether it's emotionally or some other misattunment.

Kirsten Davidson 19:03

Yeah. Yeah, like bullying, emotional abuse, um, even to less extreme degrees. I know abuse is a heavy term to even turn the dial down a little bit. Yeah, just moments of unkindness that you received from someone.

April Snow 19:17

Yeah. Right. And I know for people that are more attuned to what's happening in a relationship. And I think, well, I know I see this a lot where on the surface from someone else looks in at a relationship between an HSP and maybe a non-HSP or uh a parent who is not present, everything looks great on the surface. Oh, look, the parent is they're there, they're physically there, they're taking care of the child's needs, they're maybe even having you know heartfelt conversations, but it doesn't go deep enough, or the parent doesn't quite understand the HSP experience. And so there's another, there's almost an invisible abandonment that happens that can create that need for deeper connections and being seen and feeling like, uh, am I enough? Yeah, it's so subtle for us as HSPs.

Kirsten Davidson 20:08

Yeah, I think that subtlety I think is such an important word when we're talking about highly sensitive. And when we're noticing those things, it's because we're attuned to those things. And yeah, I just think that's a really appropriate word for the whole experience.

April Snow 20:25

True. Yeah, that's true. And I appreciate while you were saying, no, it could just be it doesn't have to be like complete abandonment. There are levels, there are layers there just to be able to validate your experience through the listener's experience. Yeah. Yeah. So if we have been abandoned or we've experienced these moments of misattunment or disconnection, we then may not be able to recognize, let alone honor our own needs. So what steps can we take then to stop doing that, to start putting our needs first, to not abandon ourselves in service of keeping others comfortable?

Kirsten Davidson 21:08

Yeah, it's such a good

Micro Steps And Macro Boundaries

Kirsten Davidson 21:10

question. I think, well, two things come to mind. One, I'm biased, but trauma-informed therapy can make a huge difference in just starting to get familiar and noticing the parts of ourselves that are, yeah, not attuned to us. They might be attuned to other people, but likely from a place of anxiety and fear. And if we can start to recognize them, build relationships with these parts of ourselves, there can be change. This also then has to be translated into the real world. So second thing that comes to mind is this you know, you can have micro exposures, you can have macro exposures, but I think a micro exposure is you notice the anxiety that comes with people pleasing, and you can play. Out, what would you do here? So you might feel anxiety. Oh, like I should probably pick up my phone and text this person to make sure they're not mad at me or whatever it is, right? And you see that happening for yourself. And sometimes it happens subconsciously. So if we can bring conscious awareness to it and we've done some of the background work, we might feel like we have a little bit more capacity to actually do the opposite. So that squirrel analogy I used before, you know, we have the anxiety, we're like, let's do the thing, let's get it done, let's move, right? Notice the squirrel and be the lion and actually do the opposite, like lay back, sit back, and notice you're safe, like you're okay. Nothing bad is happening right now as we do that. And just to normalize the heck out of it's going to feel really uncomfortable. And it's way easier said than done, which is why I'm, you know, giving this example with the background assumption that like you've done some of the inner work on like what part shows up, how do we counter it? How do we show our system we're safe?

April Snow 23:05

Yeah, exactly. Having some framework, some language to hold the experience. Yeah. Because we're we're having this story come up and we need some guideposts to understand what's happening underneath. So yeah, noticing, being able to make a different choice. I love these notice the squirrel, be the lion. I'm gonna start saying that to myself. It's so true. And just because that feeling is there, it doesn't mean that we have to let it pull us forward. We can make a different choice, we can take a detour at some point in the process. It's obviously it takes time to shift those long held patterns, but that awareness is a good first step of okay, let me just notice I'm having this impulse. I might text the person anyway. At least I'm noticing this time.

Kirsten Davidson 23:55

Yeah, I think that's a great example of a micro improvement or a micro movement, right? You're at least noticing, like when we're practicing mindfulness, at least there's an awareness of what's happening. And as time goes on, we want to go deeper than just that awareness. But to start, that's that's brilliant, right? And I'll say that to clients often when we uncover a behavior. I'll just say, you know, your quote unquote homework is just notice. Don't even put any pressure on yourself to change. Just notice when that's happening and how that feels in your system.

April Snow 24:26

Exactly. That's that's incredible for you know, shifting the pattern. So you talk about micro exposures. So that might be a micro exposure. Okay. I'm potentially just observing, maybe making a slightly different choice. What would be a macro exposure?

Kirsten Davidson 24:42

Yeah, macro exposure would be just back to that texting example. So say there's like legitimate conflict with someone. It could be a partner, parent, colleague, anyone, and it's unresolved. And you've said everything you can say, they haven't responded. You feel like you're dying inside. You're like, I need to, like, I need to reach out, I need to do the thing. But they actually are the one that hurt you. Yeah. And really, they're the one that needs to come and meet you where you are and apologize and make amends and do all that, right? And and so macro would be just being that lion, like stepping back, noticing all of that like squirrely tendency and desire and normalizing like how hard that is to actually give space for the other person to show up because you're so worried, you're like, well, I have to show up to remove all doubt that they won't. We have to give them room to show up for you. And so that would be, I am actually not going to reach out to this person until they have, because I've already done it, like balls in their court, and that's on them. Like when I see that for clients, that's huge. That's huge growth.

April Snow 25:58

Yeah, that's really huge growth where you can tolerate creating more distance between the feeling and the action and giving them space to step forward. But you're right, we often will be the one that steps forward because we're worried that person won't show up for us, that will be disappointed. It's a self-protective mechanism when you're a big feeler. Uh but also then it prevents the other person from meeting you halfway. Exactly. Or at least knowing if they will or they won't. Yeah. Okay. So that's what we but reminding us that it takes time. We don't go from A to Z. We first maybe notice and do the same thing, and then slowly over time with those resources holding us up, having your therapist bolstering you from beyond that, then you can get there safely. Because this is a lot of there's a lot of nervous system relational work that needs to happen.

Kirsten Davidson 26:52

Yeah.

IFS Parts Work And Self Energy

April Snow 26:53

Exactly. Exactly.

Kirsten Davidson 26:55

I'll just speak more as well to what can lead to a greater sense of safety when we're leaning away from the people pleasing and we're actually doing the opposite action than what we're used to be doing is in therapy or you know, in your own inner work, developing a relationship with yourself. And when you can do that, what you're learning is that you are that secure person for this part of you that feels anxious. Like you are that reliable adult that this part, you know, is looking for in that moment. I'm noticing that I'm using a lot of language around parts within our system. And I just want to pause to maybe name and explain that I'm actually currently taking a training in an intervention called internal family systems. And IFS shows us how we have this system, this family of parts within us. I often reference the movie Inside Out, if anyone has seen that, right? Like with the little creatures in their brain. We have like hundreds and thousands and like innumerable amounts. It kind of oversimplifies it, of course, but it's a good reference for like there are parts of us that are working so hard to keep us safe. And they're usually younger, like they're younger versions of us that have come online and they are so well intentioned and often cause quite a bit of destruction. And so when we're tuning into these parts of us, and when I'm using that language, that's what I'm referring to. Like there's a part of you that feels anxious. You as an entire being are not anxious. There's a part of you, and that's a very real sensation. So it can help like take us out of that as well and not pathologize like I am an anxious person. It's like, no, there's a part of me that's feeling really anxious, and it has a really good reason.

April Snow 28:53

Yeah, it's a really helpful framework to understanding that, yeah, I'm not inherently anxious, it's just there's this one experience or this one layer of me that is. So then the other parts can support that anxious part. And so let's say if we go back to the example of maybe I'm communicating with a parent and there's a part of me that's feeling anxious to step in and do the caretaking work. How can we then access other parts that could come in as a support layer? If you could speak to that.

Kirsten Davidson 29:24

Yeah, that's a great question. The parts that are working so hard to protect us are the ones that are usually going to rock the boat, but like I said, by accident. So the we'll say the anxious part, that's a protective part. That's like, how do I just, like we've said before, how do I remove all doubt that this person's gonna ignore me? I'm gonna be the one to initiate and try and resolve. There will be other protectors around that. Really, what we want to do is work with what's called self-energy. And self-energy is in IFS, they use this metaphor: self-energy is the sun, it's you, you're born with it, it's inherent. It's just it's you without all the clouds. And the parts are kind of viewed as these clouds. And again, they're not, there's no bad parts, none of them are malicious, but they sometimes get in the way of that sun, which is just you. So it's accessing self-energy by tuning into these cloudy parts and giving them some more clarity. So it's a great question because other parts will come up when you focus on one. So you focus on the anxious part. Nine out of 10 times there's a judgment part right there, being like, You're stupid, why are you feeling so anxious? Right. Why are you doing this again? Yes, exactly. So it's working with them to help everyone part and your natural like light to shine through. But yeah, that's kind of the dynamic there.

April Snow 30:58

Yeah, it's a helpful metaphor, isn't it, to see like, okay, it's very relatable. There's these clouds coming in that are maybe they have old stories or running old scripts. You think we have to keep doing the same thing? It's like, no, we can we can maybe let them pass, or we can, you know, resource within in ourselves to work with them. If it I don't know, it feels very helpful to know, like, oh, I could support myself. Yeah, exactly. And I don't have to be a hundred percent in the anxiety or whatever the feeling is that feels insurmountable. Like, oh yeah, okay, I can I can lift myself up.

Kirsten Davidson 31:34

Yeah, it's such a helpful resource. Absolutely. I think the hopefulness that you name is such a natural response, like that just shows to how it works, right? Even in just explaining it, it can bring hope. Like we are hope merchants as therapists, and yes, when we know an intervention can do that, it it feels exciting. It's like, wow, yeah, that's possible.

April Snow 31:55

Exactly. And you know, it's already within us, which is the beauty, right? I don't have to change, it's here, it's already you know at my disposal that I can then reach for when I'm in these tough moments. Yeah, hearts work is really powerful. Yeah, yeah. Oh, Kirsten, I'm wondering if there's any other thoughts around this conversation around, you know, reclaiming our agency, working with the people pleasing, learning to recognize what's at the root of that people pleasing, which is often hypervigilance, you know, something happening in our nervous system where we may be trying to soothe old stories, old feelings of abandonment or insecurity. Is there anything that we haven't touched on that you feel is important to name in this conversation? I guess specifically around people pleasing or yeah, if just anything is coming up for you. I just want to give you an opportunity to close the loop here before we start to wrap up.

Kirsten Davidson 32:55

I'm just thinking more about what we were chatting about earlier with caretaking. So I just want to name that caretaking from a place of love without it being merged with people pleasing, that is self-energy.

April Snow 33:09

Oh, can you say more about that?

Kirsten Davidson 33:12

That's an example of our natural desire to love and to be loved and to give and receive, and just that that natural and non-fearful state. So that's an example of like doing for sake of doing. So even as I say that, I'm thinking of creativity, doesn't even have to be caretaking. Like if you're creating for sake of creating, that's self-energy.

April Snow 33:37

Yeah.

Kirsten Davidson 33:38

Anything that you're doing for sake of this lived experience of being human and not to avoid harm, emotional harm, not to protect yourself in some way. So the energy around caretaking, again, if you're gonna be doing the dishes for your partner out of fear that if you don't, you're going to get reamed out, that's not self-energy. That's anxiety. Right. But if you're doing it because you just love the feeling of them coming home and being so happy that that's done, that's self-energy. And so we want to just maximize the amount of time we spend in self-energy.

April Snow 34:18

That makes sense. And you're speaking exactly to what I was feeling, but having a hard time communicating of you know, caretaking, it does, it feels more what's the word, more open, more neutral, more alive. Whereas people pleasing, it is it. There's a squirrel in there.

Kirsten Davidson 34:37

It feels squirrely.

April Snow 34:38

Yeah, yeah. Right. There is, there's a little bit of fear, or I'm taking precaution. I want to make sure something doesn't go wrong. And so I love, I appreciate that you're expanding this conversation out that we can look at anything we're doing, whether it's working, being in a relationship, spending time with what's important to us, like creativity, or even say spirituality or anything. What is the energy I'm bringing to that? That's a great checkpoint to look at. Thank you for that. Yeah, of course.

Kirsten Davidson 35:10

Before I was in IFS training, I would speak to that as being in love versus being in fear, which I got from Eckhart Toll when he talks about like, you know, closed fists versus open palm. Are we doing things in that place of fear or love? And now that you know I've deepened my work, it's like, oh yeah, well, another way to phrase that is are we doing it from our parts? Is it parts led or is it self-led?

April Snow 35:34

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Very similar. So love or fear, self, could you say that again?

Kirsten Davidson 35:40

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So love or fear or self or parts?

April Snow 35:44

Self or parts. Right. The sun or the clouds. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Last question I'll ask before we start to wrap

Love Versus Fear In Your Body

April Snow 35:52

up. I'm wondering for you or for your clients, how have you seen as a way to bring in or connect with more of that self energy? Is it mindfulness? Is it working with a therapist? What could the path to that look like? I'm curious.

Kirsten Davidson 36:08

Yeah. I think when we're talking specifically about parts, being able to look at your system through a parts-informed lens can be really beautiful. So that can look like therapy. That can also look like, you know, taking time to read about parts work and to understand more of your system. I think the love versus fear is maybe more accessible if you're not in therapy. It's like, yeah, am I doing it in like white knuckling, like I'm so nervous, or am I doing it with an open palm and I'm just like happy to be doing it, whatever the it is. But yeah, I think being able to access self-energy first starts with having a sense that there are clouds or that there is a closed fist, that there is a lot of fear. And from there, we need to meet that fear fist parts. We need to meet that and understand where does it come from, right? What why is it there? What does it think it's saving you from? And almost always the answer is something from childhood or some type of trauma that could have been in adulthood too. Like these parts think they're protecting you. And at a certain point, they're actually getting in the way of you being able to soften and connect with that self-energy. So, long answer short is a trauma-informed work of some sort where we can understand more about what are these blockages? Like if we don't understand them, how can we ever let them go?

April Snow 37:30

It's so true. Because you're right that we often our parts are operating in the past. They think they're protecting us, they think they're keeping us safe. And yeah, they become these barriers where we're just like this isn't actually happening anymore. We are okay, but they haven't yet caught up to present day. And so bringing some inner dialogue and awareness there really helps.

Kirsten Davidson 37:52

Yeah. Yeah. You named mindfulness, so I'll just name that as well. I think parts work is all mindfulness. So it is, it is, yeah, it's completely tied together. Mindfulness outside of therapy, like we talk about micro exposure, macro exposure. Yeah, I'll give like a micro step for listeners. Like, if you can notice the next time you feel fearful or anxious from a place of people pleasing, to pause and feel that in your system. Notice like, where is that anxiety in my body? Do I feel like a tightness in my chest? Are my palms sweaty? Am I feeling like I'm shaking? Am I having trouble breathing right now? Is it just like a tenseness? So just getting attuned to the somatic piece there. That's a really good first step. Cause what we're doing is we're training our mind to notice when that part of us comes online.

April Snow 38:45

Yeah, we can kind of take the reins a little bit more then. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. That's a great first step just to start to be aware of how these manifest in our systems. Yeah. Thank you. Well, Kristen, I'm wondering if there's any last messages you could share with the HSP listeners who may be on this path of teasing out their different parts or just bringing more mindfulness to their people-pleasing tendencies, anything that comes up that you want to leave as a last message?

Kirsten Davidson 39:17

Yeah, I think just that, you know, even the label HSP, I think it can be extremely helpful and that we are not doomed to our genes, we're not doomed to our biology, and we can transcend whatever we came into this world with and whatever we've experienced. And so just to go back to that hope merchanting that, you know, we say it or I say it because I know it's true. I've experienced it myself and I see it happening. So just to name that we're so flexible, like we don't need to be stuck with the challenging parts of being highly sensitive. There's so much beauty, we don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water. Like, yeah, don't lose your empathy, don't lose all of those things along the healing journey.

April Snow 40:01

Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that. Because you're right, we can get kind of pigeonholed and thinking like this is this is just a difficult experience of being more sensitive. And there are so many incredibly beautiful, inspiring, happy moments. And we're lucky, we get to experience them more deeply than most. So I always like to remind folks to hold on to that. And it creates resilience when we can find the glimmers, the hope, the joy, and we get to see it at a subtle level. So it's gonna be quite a gift. So thank you for that reminder. Absolutely.

Hopeful Takeaways And Where To Start

April Snow 40:36

Well, I'll make sure that for anyone who liked to follow up with you, I'll share your website, your social media in the show notes. Can you tell listeners a little bit more about working with you, how they can work with you and who you work with?

Kirsten Davidson 40:48

Yeah, absolutely. So I work with adults, 18 and up. I work with individuals one-to-one. I also work with couples and with families. And I do some of my work in person in Burlington, Ontario, for anyone who's a Canadian listener. And I also do virtual sessions. I think, you know, probably from listening to me speak with you today, listeners have a sense of what it would be like to sit with me. And I do, I am very serious about healing, but I'm also playful. And I think it's important to have both and to bring some levity to the darkness as we work with parts and get to know ourselves more.

April Snow 41:26

Yeah, it's so important to bring all of those pieces to the table and just have a you know a layered experience. There can be hard parts, but there's also joy and hope in the work. So thank you for that. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Kirsten. It's a joy getting to talk with you today and hear more about your health.

Kirsten Davidson 41:42

Likewise, thank you so much, April.

April Snow 41:50

Thanks so much for joining me and Kirsten for today's conversation. What I hope you'll remember is that you can support yourself from the inside out, tapping into those parts of yourself that are grounded in the here and now. If you're in Canada and want to work with Kirsten, head to Mindthegaps.co. The link is also in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Sensitive Stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated. Check out the show notes or head to sensitive stories.com to find all the resources and the transcript from today's episode. Thanks for listening.