Finding Home In Art Class

Jill McDougall 0:00

Once I set foot in that art classroom with Miss Anna Janet, the best art teacher ever, I felt like I was home. I felt like I could be myself. It was just such a joyful, pressure-free place to be.

Welcome To Sensitive Stories

April Snow 0:25

Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host, psychotherapist and author April Snow. I invite you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm. In this episode, I talk with Jill McDougal about growing up feeling sensory sensitive, creating space for playful moments, pulling the threads of curiosity, and learning to trust your intuitive gifts. Jill is a mixed media collage artist living in Washington state. Fascinated by what lies beneath the surface, she notices the details and nuance of things and builds fragments of her observations into the layers of her art. She believes that the world needs authenticity, creativity, and connection now more than ever, and is learning to lean into her sensitivities and reframe them as superpowers. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in the welcome to the podcast.

Jill McDougall 1:58

I'm so excited to have you here today. Oh, thank you so much for having me, April. I have been looking forward to this. I'm so excited to talk to you.

April Snow 2:06

Same. It's always nice to meet folks who I've met online and we get to connect a little bit more deeply.

Discovering The HSP Name

April Snow 2:12

Before we get started, though, I'd always love to hear about your HSP discovery story. So if you can remember how or when you realized, oh, I think I might be highly sensitive.

Jill McDougall 2:21

Oh man. Well, I feel like I've known there was something about me that was different ever since I had a conscious memory. So I think knowing that has been something that I've just had to kind of make peace with over the years. And it was such a relief when I finally started hearing the term HSP. I don't even remember how many years ago it was, but as soon as I went through the checklist, I think I checked every single box. Yes. As I'm sure you probably experienced too. There's at some point there was like a checklist. And I think I went online and did the quiz. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, go ahead.

April Snow 3:03

No, I just resonate with that because a lot of people that I talked to, and my myself included, there's this knowing early on, something is different. I experienced the world in a different way. But then later in life as adults, we finally start to piece together the language. And okay, this is a thing. And okay, I found a book, taken the self-test. And it's like, okay, things start to come together.

Jill McDougall 3:26

Yeah. And it really does just put everything into perspective. And, you know, I read the book Sensitive with Jen Graneman. And I think that that was probably the first start to finish book where I went, oh, every single bit of this I can relate to. Like there were pieces of different things here and there. And I had kind of heard the term sprinkled in here and there. But it wasn't until I read that cover to cover that I went, oh, okay, I am not alone. There are more of me. And just the relief that that brings is just immense. And I would say that that was a really pivotal point in my life. I mean, it's been a few years now, but just the confidence that I've been able to slowly build ever since that realization and just having the language for it and knowing that, oh my gosh, this is something that we can really lean into if we let ourselves.

April Snow 4:26

Yes, if we let ourselves, exactly.

Jill McDougall 4:31

So it takes courage. It does courage.

April Snow 4:34

It really does. Can you speak more to that?

Jill McDougall 4:37

You know, I I was listening to some clips of sensitive stories, like in the lead up to this. And I just I kept taking all these little notes of yes, yes, yes, because these are like the people that I get. So are people that yeah, exactly? And there was this one man, and I didn't write down his name because I was busy doing other things at the same time, but he was talking about how like carving out what we need can sometimes feel a little narcissistic. And it can feel like me, me, me. And I know that that has been something that in past relationships and in my family, it's like there's kind of a balance. It's like, oh, you know, like, is she just being a princess or is she, you know, like, but understanding now that, like, oh my gosh, all I have been trying to do my entire life is just like keep my head above water so that I can function. And none of this is out of, like, I don't, I wish I did not need for you to turn off the overhead light when I come into your house. Sure. I wish that I could be in a loud room and stay up late and not have that affect me. Like, if like really, like that would be amazing. The fact that I do need all of that, I've had to make peace with just like, it's okay that I need that. And it's okay that I can't show up in certain spaces. And really grounding myself into that reality, that's where I'm trying to come from, is just the like unapologetic, this is what I need. And if you don't like it, like I'm sorry.

April Snow 6:14

Yeah, I really that is that I can feel that energy of like, yes, this is what I need, recognizing it, living it, claiming it, and not needing to apologize because we're sensitivity is not changing. We can make adjustments to feel more comfortable, to meet our needs, but ultimately at the core, we are always going to be sensitive. And you said, like, you know, now in adulthood, there's been some confidence building, being able to accept that.

Rewriting Childhood With Reparenting

April Snow 6:41

And before we get in too far down the road, I'm curious to look a little bit back because when we realize that we're highly sensitive, oftentimes that's the first part of the process that happens. You start to look at what came before and say, oh, I need to rewrite those stories with this awareness of myself. So I'm curious if we could share a little bit about that. How have you reframed the past?

Jill McDougall 7:03

I would love to dive into that because I, you know, in my art, a lot of times I explore memory, I explore nostalgia, I think even before we're forming thoughts, we take in the world in such a visual, visceral way that, you know, a lot of times they'll just kind of have these flashbacks to those times. Like, what did it feel like to be this little tiny person just taking in this brand new world and colors and just all of it? So I I love sort of going back in time in a way. And when I think about little Jill, I think I both love the world that I was in, and I also really struggled with being in the box. Yeah. The boxes of school, the boxes of like I grew up in a in a pretty conservative church, and like fitting into those boxes, dressing up every Sunday in these really scratchy tights and lacy dresses, and being told that my impulses were not right, you know, like that anything that I felt in my intuition was not something to be trusted, but it was something to be questioned. And anyway, so so I had trouble fitting those boxes. My first day of kindergarten, I came home and I said, I don't think that my teacher likes children very much. And I just asked my mom about this the other day, and she was like, you know what? I don't think she did either. I, you know, I got that vibe too. And then the other story I remembered when I was thinking about this was there was this sand tray in the kindergarten classroom. And I was so excited to play with that. I came home and I was like, if that's a part of kindergarten, then I want to be a part of it. April, I did not get to play with that thing once. Like it just sat in the corner and no one played with this sand tray. Isn't that so tragic? That is tragic. It's kindergarten. You're supposed to be exploring your world. Yeah, yeah. And it just wasn't part of things. And and so in reparenting, I'm gonna go in this direction here. In reparenting, I am really trying to honor that little kid. And my town has this amazing arts festival every year, and there's this, I'm gonna just shout out Olander Earthworks because they're these handmade, they're actually over here. He carves out these insanely beautiful designs, and then and then you buy a sand tray and you can make little oh, and so I was like, I'm buying, I'm buying little Jill a sand tray, like she gets to play now, you know, and and so connecting with all of that and like just giving that hid self of you like what you needed then. There's something really healing about that, don't you think?

April Snow 10:02

Oh, a hundred percent. And I was really hoping you would have sand tray as an adult.

Jill McDougall 10:07

I do, I have the sand tray. My daughter is like, oh my gosh, would you shut up with a sand tray already? I bought it like four, four years ago, and all her friends would come over and I'd be like, Look at my sand tray. It was so playful and so ridiculous, but it filled me with such joy.

April Snow 10:24

Well, and that's the thing, you can recapture those moments, have those, you know, like full circle healing experiences and give yourself what you needed then. Now your adult self can take care of your younger self and say, here, here's the sand tray. You play with it whenever you want to. Uh, and santrays are so healing. You know, having studied San Tray in the very early parts of my therapist trajectory, I know how important they can be in working through experiences, and they were great tools for working out the unconscious as children and adults. Perfect play therapy. It's so I'm not surprised you were drawn to it. A lot of symbolism there. Yeah.

Jill McDougall 11:06

Oh, that is so cool. I didn't even know that was like a therapy thing. That's wonderful. No wonder we started talking about sand. That's great. Not a not a direction I thought we'd go in. No, but not an accident either. Okay, so the question was what do I remember? Like, what was my experience in my childhood

Designing Sensory Friendly Spaces

Jill McDougall 11:24

too? I was just so, so sensitive to anything sensory. And it was really confusing. And I had, it was like I moved through my days at school with this vision of what I would be comfortable in. Like, like, oh, if we could turn out the lights, if we could like, I even remember having this. I what if everyone took off their outside shoes when they got here and put on soft slippers? And what if we had like ean bags in the classroom and lamps? And what if we, I mean, yes, I'm like this, it was so just different. And I just couldn't wait to get home after school. I just wanted to go home and play with my Legos and color and be in my own space. And then not to mention all the social interactions and everything coming at you from peers.

April Snow 12:28

You're really inundated. And it sounds like, you know, I noticed at the beginning you talked about your sensory lived experience, and all HSPs tend to be more sensory sensitive. But I wonder being an artist, if there's also a heightened experience there of being drawn to that layer of yourself. I don't know. I'm just curious. I think so.

Jill McDougall 12:49

Well, say more about that so that it so that it brings this out.

April Snow 12:53

Yeah, it just I noticed when you walked into the classroom, like you noticed all these textural details. And I mean, you're also picking up on social cues of the teacher, and there's a perception and intuition there, but also being really mindful of how could I make this space more sensory friendly? Like you want an extra step in your mind. Interesting. I'm just about that.

Jill McDougall 13:15

Yeah. Okay, well, so this gets to a during my late 20s and all of my 30s, I helped people in their spaces and I helped them create like my tagline was like creating harmonious environments. And so my favorite thing was to just go in and work with what they already had and just like rework it. And and that was just that just lit me up. So before I did full-time art, that's what I did. And so I guess I got to live out that dream. Like, all right, well, I guess let's roll it then. But you know what? I'm gonna come and come and make a cozy space now.

April Snow 13:50

Well, I love that. It's like it was always in you, and that yeah, obviously, there's a lot of layers to this and to your sensitivity, but I always love seeing those through lines of like this was always here. I was born this way, it's not changing. Let me embrace it.

Jill McDougall 14:06

The acceptance is the key. Just that coaching ourselves through it when we get overstimulated, not beating ourselves up over it, but instead just being like, it's okay. I mean, honestly, it's so cheesy, but sometimes I'll just be like, it's okay, it's all right. Yes, we I got you, like this is okay. You feel this big feeling right now, and it's okay to feel it. I mean, it's just revolutionary. And wouldn't it have been nice to learn all this stuff as kids? But you know what? Better late than never. There's no going back. And it's true.

April Snow 14:40

I do the same thing. I've learned just to transform that inner voice and yeah, offering myself physical care and contact, like, yeah, you're gonna be okay. You're doing a good job.

Jill McDougall 14:50

Yes, all the things I wanted to hear. Oh

Dodgeball Dread And Art Room Safety

Jill McDougall 14:54

my gosh. And what we didn't get from our teachers, I wanted to say one of the other things that I was thinking about my childhood was this PE teacher that I know was just like, oh my gosh, what is wrong with this girl? He used to so I grew up in the 80s, and the 80s was a little feral, you know. Like 80s PE class was just, I don't know. So he had this game called Pick Up Your Own Backyard. And do you remember those like giant basketball-sized like dodgeballs? Like they were red rubber ones, they were really hard. You're shaking your head. I love this. Like you get it. Yes, I was so scared of those. Oh, they were horrible. So listen to this, April. He would dump out, he had these two giant containers, he would divide the dim in half, he would dump out half on one side, you pay, and dump the other side. And it was called Pick Up Your Own Backyard. And the goal was to hock these giant red dodgeballs at each other and get each other out. And the noise, the lights, the sensory experience of being nailed by one of those things. Oh, the terror. It was absolute terror. And I was talking to my best friend Allison about this, and she was like, I loved dodgeball. And I'm like, oh my gosh, like we are so different.

April Snow 16:16

So different. Yeah. So it's funny how, like, yeah, some people love that excitement and the challenge of that. For me, yeah, it was a lot because you just you don't know what's about to happen. You know you're gonna be hurt. It's kind of amazing.

Jill McDougall 16:29

You're gonna be hurt.

April Snow 16:30

It's amazing that you look back and like what the things we were exposed to. It's like seriously. As an HSP, it's very intense, it's very overstimulating. Yeah, the noise, but also the emotional experience of that. And yeah, yeah.

Jill McDougall 16:47

Yeah, and then just to have, you know, just to be like, can I sit out? And he'd be like, You always want to sit out. I'm like, well, do you see what you're putting us through? But I will say that in contrast to PE, like I liked music, it was a comfortable place. My mom was a piano teacher, and so that was something I was familiar with. But I tell you what, once I set foot in that art classroom with Miss Anna Janet, the best art teacher ever, I felt like I was home. I felt like I could be myself. She was this quintessential art teacher that had like crazy curls that were like clipped with all these different clips and these glasses with these the beaded, you know, glasses holders and just these crazy layers. And she would just sit at the front of the classroom and say, Today let's paint a cat. And she would do a very quick outline demo with whatever paint, and then the rest of the time we could just be. And it was just such a joyful, free, yeah, like pressure-free place to be that um I have been very, very lucky to have amazing art teachers and professors in my life that that allowed me most of them. Most of them have been amazing.

April Snow 18:08

Wow, what a contrast to PE just coming in and I know just gonna be able to move at your own rhythm and follow your creativity. Oh, what a bomb.

Jill McDougall 18:18

Nothing's flying at me. Nothing's gonna and and I also think when we are doing something with our hands too, like we I don't know about you, but when you're having a conversation with somebody, like okay, let me, my words don't always go in the right order. When I am creating with other artists, it is amazing how the conversation just is magical and flows. You just get into these topics that maybe you wouldn't necessarily get into if you're just sitting at a round table with everyone, just exchanging ideas. It's almost like both the art frees up the conversation, the conversation frees up the art. It's a really fun thing. I wanted to ask you what your experience with art is. I mean, as a creative HSP person, I'm sure there is something art related.

April Snow 19:13

I it's funny because I still remember, I don't know if it was my it was elementary school. I still remember my art teacher, and similar, like she was very eccentric and just very grounding. And I it's funny, I was cutting out circles the other day, and I still remember how she taught us to cut a circle and like other little things that have stuck in me. Yeah, and I've always been drawn to art. I come back and forth to it, like I really love watercolors, and that's been a goal recently. I used to dabble with watercolors, and now I'm like, I want to take a class, I want it to feel that like experiential, tactile nature of that. There's just something I love the fluidity and how the I love mixing color. That's my favorite thing, like creating new colors. Yeah, and I was as a kid, I was more of a crafter than into art, so I would do crochet and I don't know if you remember those things where you make like tissue boxes and things out of like yarn and plastic. Yeah, like Bargello or something like that, or bargello, something like that. I love making pillows. I had a pillow phase where I make pillows out of t-shirts. Oh, see, I just three deer too. I like 3D, yes, exactly. 2D, but yeah, I used to make a lot of like uh Christmas crafts out of old Christmas cards. I would make gift boxes. Goodness, you are primed for collage. Can I just tell you? That's true. I do enjoy some. It's funny. I like to collect a friend of mine, and we used to, we haven't done this in a minute, but we used to make art to send. So we would take things that we found, like postcards or stickers or junk mail or anything we found in the wild, we would make postcards out of it. Well, you're a part of my art people now.

Jill McDougall 20:55

I'm a part of the HSP community. You are a part of my collage community now.

April Snow 20:59

That's true. I didn't really think about that. That's why I always think of like, oh, I'm not really an artist. But then as you're helping me reflect, there's been very substantial art themes in my life, and I've drawn to different types of art or creativity. But right now, in this part of my life, I really want to dive into watercolor. And now collage because good.

Jill McDougall 21:20

Well, we we'll have to talk sometime. We can do a zoom and I can show you the ropes and because I do love your art having looked at it.

April Snow 21:28

Thank you. You know, I think we've only connected recently on Instagram, but I was looking at your and I was like, oh, this is very, I always told you, but it's like very ethereal and I don't know, complex but soothing. It feels very HSP and I loved it. It's like there's complexity here, and I love looking and finding all the layers and you know, wondering about how these materials found their way to you and you know, all those.

Collage Layers And Noticing Nuance

April Snow 21:49

There's a lot of story there I can tell.

Jill McDougall 21:51

There is so much story there, and I love working with uh found objects like you do. But I like I will go to estate sales. And I will go to thrift stores and find like the older, the better, like old handwriting. Oh, old. I love that. Vintage papers. And then I'll dye the papers and I'll paint them and I'll work with them. But the depth of collage, like it sort of mirrors my depth of processing and the revealing and the concealing of, okay, this is here, but you know what? I'm gonna paint over it. Ooh, like you're not gonna see it anymore, but I know it's there, you know? And maybe I'll put paint on it, but then maybe I'll grab a paper towel and wipe that paint off so it just leaves a little bit of a sheen. And so, so just that veiled approach. And then I just kind of do layers and layers back and forth, back and forth until I feel like it's got that sense of calm because that is important to me. I want it to be something that is compelling for me to look at that that I want to get lost in. Like I get lost in moments because I feel like as HSPs, we really we exist in the spaces in between things. Yes, we really do. Just I mean, you can get lost in in just about any moment.

April Snow 23:17

We could, you know. Well, everything is compelling when you notice the fine details. Yes, the nuance. Like there's magic in everything. That is the really best part of being an HSP.

Jill McDougall 23:30

Oh, isn't it? I've said this before, but like my family are so patient with me because I'll just be like, okay, you guys, go go up ahead. I found a tiny little flower blossom that I have to take 25 pictures of, and then I'll and then I'll catch up. And and it's just to be all the time. I just can't stop. Can't stop.

April Snow 23:50

Yes, I do take a lot of photos too. It's like, okay, look at this magical thing. And it's yeah, it could be a leaf, it could be a bug, it could be anything. There's just it's everywhere. I'm curious. Do you then do you incorporate some of your own photos into your artwork?

Jill McDougall 24:08

I do, I do at times, yeah. When I can have the patience enough to like upload it, send it to the printer, find the right paper. Like those linear steps can be a little bit challenging for me to get from point A to point B. Sometimes it's easier to just, you know, grab something from a beautiful 1920s magazine and just like, oh, that I have been moving more and more into abstract lately. And I feel like I feel like my goal is what's the most that I can say with the least amount of elements.

Becoming An Artist Without Apology

April Snow 24:44

I'm curious to hear what the process of becoming an artist has looked like for you. Is that something that you always knew, or has it been a journey to get here?

Jill McDougall 24:55

It's such a good question. I think looking back, I know that I was like always an artist. Yeah. But I think that this is where conditioning comes in that tells us that it's not a real thing to be. You know, when I was in high school, my senior year, I had some time after school and I would go volunteer at my elementary school classroom where Miss Janet still was a teacher. And so I got to help her in her classroom that I loved so much as a kid. And I thought at the time that I wanted to become an art teacher. And by the time I got to college in the mid-90s, art was really being phased out of schools. And so rather than I mean, I don't blame anybody for this, but what I was hearing was, oh, that's not gonna be a good way to make a living because it's getting phased out, which I mean that's realistic. But so I shifted gears and I loved psychology. And so I majored in psychology, and then by the end of that, I did a practicum, and I realized that I didn't know how to separate myself as a major empath from what I was seeing. And at the time that wasn't really focused on very much. And so I had pivoted from art teacher to now I will become a therapist. And then by senior year, it was like, oh my gosh, I am a wreck. I don't know how to manage this. So I got a minor in studio art because I had taken so many art classes. I got to spend the last, you know, last semester in just kind of in the art building. And it was the best time of my life. I was this close to becoming the art therapy certifications were brand new at the time. And I remember attending a conference, and I was just a little too overwhelmed by like, oh my gosh, I just finished my bachelor's degree. And like, do I really want to go on just straight out, like and get this master's degree? It was just like I was ready to live, I was ready to not be in a structure. So I kind of threw everything off. And I traveled for years. I worked at an art gallery. I everywhere I've gone, I've done art. Art has been with me. It has been the through line. It's the core. It's who I am. And I yeah, and I actually have this sign on my wall too. It says, it doesn't matter what I create, it matters that I create.

April Snow 27:28

Yes.

Jill McDougall 27:28

And it's just that's it. Like I have to, I'm compelled. So many of us are as artists, like we have no choice. Like it is the thing. When I walk into my studio, it's the thing that regulates me. Yeah. And when pieces find their home in the world, that's the bonus, that's the icing on the cake. What I am a proponent of is just everyone is an artist with their own unique form of expression. I just really, really truly believe that.

Twenty Minutes Of Daily Creative Play

April Snow 27:59

I love that. It's true because we oftentimes we do minimize art and creativity. We tend to glorify those more intellectual parts of ourselves and we shut away our creative sides. So I'm curious if there are people listening that maybe are wanting to reconnect with their creativity, who are drawn to art. Maybe they're already an artist, maybe they're by trade, maybe they're wanting to be or just wanting to get more creative in general. Is there a note of encouragement you could offer?

Jill McDougall 28:29

Or you know, it's funny. Yeah, absolutely. It's funny that we're recording this when we are because I have it might not come out for a bit, but I have a challenge that that I give people to create every day in May. And it's the idea is to give yourself 20 minutes a day and just play, just do anything you want. So I have this old-fashioned analog. I love analog. I know, I know we are trying to do you? Oh my gosh! Oh, you're my hourglass sister. I'm gonna put that back there and let yourself just reconnect with that child in the art room who's just free to do anything. Grab anything you want to draw with and just let yourself be free. So it works for artists who are, you know, are regular working artists who are working on things, like take a break from those projects and just do something completely left field, just so that you can exercise the part of your brain and keep that part free. The improvisational, intuitive part of that is the thing that has helped me stay connected. And so, whatever you can do to find playful moments in your life to like sink into if you're cooking dinner, just kind of like take a little zoom out and realize like, I'm creating something here. So there's like the actual creating of the art, but then there's also the way of being in the world. There's the how can I just take a little bit of a step back and realize like, look at everything around us. Like, yeah, like this is all just pretty amazing. So, one of the things I wanted to show you is I have these little themed books. So, one of the things I collect at thrift stores, secondhand stores, estate sales, is cool old hardback books. And a lot of times you'll just find one completely blank. But I found this one and I labeled it my book of freedom. And, you know, I think as an artist, we're always trying to kind of produce these like, okay, is this postable? Is it sellable? Is it framable? And I thought I need a place that I it is really dedicated to just scribble, just make stuff that like really is intentionally just not all that attractive. Um, but so it's my scribble book. It is my book of freedom, and it is my book of full expression. And when I sit down with a crayon, like I'll put it in my non-dominant hand and I'll just I'll just play. Um, what else? This was this was based on peonies the other day. I mean, it is just there's so much that's just all over the place with it, and that's the point. It's not trying to be anything pretty, it is just it's just gonna be out there.

April Snow 31:22

It's so therapeutic. I mean, I often I've had clients also color with their non-dominant hand because it helps unlock memories and it's and emotions, and you're not stuck in this habitual way of being with your dominant hand. I love that you have that. It's like, yeah, permission to play and to be free reminds me of you being in your art class as a kid of like, yeah, here you could paint this cat, but you could probably do anything or have your own interpretation of it.

Jill McDougall 31:50

Yeah, yeah. There was never like a, oh, you know, the whiskers actually need to look like this. Like, there's no, there was no criticism

Intuition Synchronicities And Soft Guardrails

Jill McDougall 31:57

at all. The other thing that I want to make sure to touch on while talking to you is the trusting of our intuition, the following of the threads of curiosity. I would say follow the synchronicities, follow the coincidences. They are not just flukes. If you pay attention to that, if we pay attention to those, oh my goodness, life is just so much more rich and meaningful, don't you think?

April Snow 32:27

Oh, a thousand percent. I mean, there's so many little nudges or instincts that come through, and like I've learned to trust them over the years. Yeah, they're so I mean how lucky we are to have those insights.

Jill McDougall 32:42

Oh, oh my goodness. And they always surprise you, don't they? Oh, yeah. It's just the best. The other, so I've got my book of freedom. I also have this is so funny. I have a book of synchronicities.

April Snow 32:56

Ooh.

Jill McDougall 32:57

And I write down those moments that are like too unclear to have been, yes. And because I want, I want to remember them. And so a couple of years ago, I started writing them down, and it's um it's almost like that. It's almost like what they say about gratitude journals. It's like the more you write down what you're thankful for, the more you realize how much you have to be thankful for and you start looking for those. Right. And exactly it's the same, right? You were gonna say something.

April Snow 33:26

No, it's there's I forget there's a term for it where your brain will start to track what you put focus on. It's like particular activation or something. I'm gonna believe you.

Jill McDougall 33:37

That that's what we'll call it. Yeah. I don't know.

April Snow 33:41

Never heard that. That's right. That it's wherever you put your attention, you it will grow.

Jill McDougall 33:46

Yeah, right.

April Snow 33:47

It's like, oh, okay, I'm opening myself up to noticing these moments, whether it's gratitude or synchronicities, or okay, I'm noticing when my gut is telling me something. I love that you have these spaces for this.

Jill McDougall 34:00

It's you're making room for it. I am, and it's I'm making room for it. And I my brain, as an artist, I will tell you one of the things that I struggle the most with is organization. Like when my studio was a mess, it is papers everywhere. I mean, I'll start out with the best of intentions to create in like a mindful, organized way. And within 10 minutes, things have exploded all over the place. And I know that's part of the joy, but at the same time, I do think that carving out these structures and systems can really help us be just a little bit more like, okay, can exist in this world because I have these guardrails up or these compartments to put things in. So I'm trying to work with myself in a very gentle way of like, how can we be a little bit more, you know, like sometimes I'll set the hourglass to just say for the next 20 minutes, we're cleaning. And that is just as good of whatever I'm trying to say, use of my time as it is to create. So I have trouble with being, I'm never uninspired, I'm over inspired.

April Snow 35:10

Yes.

Jill McDougall 35:11

Do you feel that way ever?

April Snow 35:13

Like there's just so much. It's such an HSV thing because I remember I was at a retreat led by Dr. Aaron and I was teaching a breakout workshop, and I don't remember the topic, but we were talking about we always have so many, we have too many ideas, and we were joking, like, oh, we should just sell our ideas as HSVs because we have so many of them and create like an idea bank. Because yeah, every moment there's something coming through. That's exactly right. You have to kind of rein it in and yeah, give yourself some not to put yourself in a box like you talked about at the beginning, but just to have some I just like to think of it as like these soft guardrails, just kind of holding, gentle holding. Yes, that's all. And then yeah, there's space for everything. I love that.

Jill McDougall 35:57

My friend Michael says, hold the intentions lightly. And I just love that. Just like it's okay. We're gonna we're gonna be okay. Like we we can set intentions, but I also think it's HSP's. I don't know, is it just an ADHD thing to have the hyperfixation, or do you think that there's some crossover with HSP2?

April Snow 36:18

I think there's crossover because we love to deep dive when we get interested in something. We're so joyful, we're so invested, we love it so much. We can't stop. So I think we we share that. Both groups share that. Yeah.

Jill McDougall 36:31

Okay. And I don't remember what I was gonna say about that, but that definitely happens to me. I was looking through this 1928 magazine, it was a beautiful publication, and there was a pretty ad. I can't believe how rich the colors are, even in these publications that are over a hundred years old, but it was for Campbell's soup. And I noticed that the Campbell's label was pretty much the same as it is today. Yeah. So then I spent my Saturday afternoon like doing some research on the Campbell's logo, and I wonder where this came from. And I wonder if that's that's it. We just could go down these rabbit holes.

April Snow 37:04

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's interesting, right? It's like being able to, well, first off, notice that detail and then feel compelled to dive in further, and then just the joy of going down that journey and learning something, and that's very unique to us, right? Just all the different layers of that experience.

Jill McDougall 37:25

And um, yeah, it's I want to ask you something.

School Overstimulation And HSP Coping

Jill McDougall 37:28

Yeah, what do you remember about? Because we spent a lot of time on what I experienced as a kid, and I want to hear what you experienced as a kid, like at school or things like that. Like, is there any crossover? Is there, I mean, you said the PE thing terrified you as well. So imagine there's other crossovers too. And I just want to hear from you.

April Snow 37:47

Yeah, I mean, I from an intellectual level, from a creative level, I love school. I love getting new books, and I loved, you know, school supplies and I loved a fresh start in the fall. But you know, the actual, you know, that was one layer, you know, from a sensory perspective, from a social perspective. School was pretty overstimulating. I remember as soon as I would get on the bus, I'd pull my knees up to my chest, and I would just get lost in my inner world. And then when it was summer, I would just I would spend whole days on the couch reading or like doing big pro like I love to immerse myself in projects, usually late at night when everyone else was asleep. Um, so I would be uninterrupted. And I love like being outside in the woods behind my house, and so school was a mix for me. Like I loved learning and I loved exploring, but also it was I was excited to get back home and to get back into my own little bubbles, which I think is really fine. We just had an episode on the HSP school experience, which just came out. And so I noticed there's a lot of crossover for us as HSPs where it is overwhelming and we do reach for these other practices, whether it's art or whatever our interests are, just to help just to help counterbalance.

Jill McDougall 39:06

Yeah.

April Snow 39:07

So yeah, you're not alone in that for sure. Yeah.

Defining Ourselves And Closing

Jill McDougall 39:11

That's good. It's just so comforting to to be with other HSPs and to just sort of understand that we all are looking through kind of the same lens. Like it's really comforting to just know other people and talk to each other.

April Snow 39:29

It's true. And it's very normalizing because growing up, there were obviously we were around other HSPs, we didn't know it ourselves. We didn't know it was, you know, they were also highly sensitive. But now having the language, being able to connect with other HSPs, it's like, oh, okay, you two, okay, I'm not alone. There's nothing wrong with me. It just creates this permission slip to show up as we are, as we need to, and create, and I love when people carve out unique lives for themselves, right? They break out of the mold and they say, you know what? I'm gonna live my way.

Jill McDougall 40:06

And it's I'm so glad that you said that. It absolutely is. And I actually wrote something out that said, like, I love that at this point in my life I have the confidence to embrace myself fully. I'm patient with my sensitivities. And I actually, here it is. I'm finally confident enough with who I am as an HSP that I can accept it, I can work with it, I can laugh at it, I can support myself through it, and I can carve out. You said the word carve, and it's perfect. I can carve out this life. And instead of constantly defending myself, I am now able to define myself. I'm able to step in and say, oh my gosh, like this actually is a pretty badass superpower to have. Like this is pretty cool that we that we know certain things that we can pick up on that maybe other people don't. And there's real value to that. And if we can lean into those, then how joyous.

April Snow 41:17

It's joyous to find ourselves, not defend ourselves. I love that, Joe. With that, we'll start to wrap up. I just want to thank you so much for just opening your heart, your stories to us. And I shared with you earlier, I'm excited to hear your sensitive story through your perspective as an artist. And it's been it's been very insightful and illuminating. So thank you.

Jill McDougall 41:41

I'm so glad you are such a sweetheart, and I'm so honored to have been able to spend this time with you. Thank you, April.

April Snow 41:47

Thank you. And for folks who would like to connect with you, I'll share your website, your Instagram, and your Substack in the show notes. Thank you. Great, thank you so much. Thanks so much for joining me and Jill for today's conversation. I hope you feel inspired to carve out some space, even if it's just a few minutes, to reconnect with your creative side. And if you'd like to connect with Jill and experience her art, find her at JillMcDougal.com. Links are also in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Sensitive Stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated. Check out the show notes or head to sensitivestories.com to find all the resources and the transcript from today's episode. Thanks for listening.